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044: Investing 101 with Chloé Daniels

Hello! Welcome to episode 44 of I’d Rather Stay In. This week, we are returning to our interest in managing our finances, this time joined by financial blogger and coach Chloé Daniels, aka Clo Bare (@Clo_bare), as she teaches us all about the basics of investing.

This post contains affiliate links.

Quick links

Chloé’s website, Clo Bare

JL Collins Stock Series

Graham Stephan’s YouTube channel

Fidelity Investments and Vanguard

Ally savings accounts

Some of Chloé’s favorite free resources

rich & REGULAR

How to Money podcast

Choose FI podcast and Choose FI blog

Millennial Revolution

The Millionaire Next Door book


Episode transcript

Welcome to I’d rather stay in the podcast for cozy introverts. We’re your hosts Stephie Predmore and Megan Myers. This week’s episode investing 101

Hello, hello.

Hi Stephie

How’s it going? Megan

it is going pretty good. I think. been kind of a day here.

Yeah, it’s almost over and now it’s podcast time

Now it’s podcast time it’s happy time. You I was gonna ask if you like didn’t know if things are going well because a chunk of your family is here in Illinois while you and the boys – chunk of your family being Bob – is still here in Illinois while you and the boys are back in Texas for a couple weeks before you close on the Austin house. So I was like to shoot,

it was a little fretful earlier today. I was like, I have to make dinner and I have to do the dishes because there’s all these dishes and I have to do this and after that, and then like, I put some, I put some food in in the slow cooker and everything was fine.

Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna go on for that. I’m gonna be real honest with you, Megan. If you mostly eat frozen pizza for the next two weeks, not a single human being will judge you.

Well, I will just myself because we have a bunch of food in the freezer and I we have to eat it or throw it away.

Okay, that’s fair.

So I will just like have anxiety about the food. So okay, that’s slowly working through the freezer food,

the freezer stash. Yeah,

we’ll get there.

That’s always one of the fun things about moving. What do I do with all my food?

It’s not even like it’s not Like a lot, it’s just because everything’s random, you know? Yeah, just like well, we have like one serving of pasta and three meatballs and some fish sticks.

It’s your own version of chopped. Pretty much you’re like, huh? Can I make with this?

The last day, it’s basically just gonna be like me dumping everything out on the counter and being like, just go for it.

What do you want? I literally don’t care as long as you’re not bothering me and saying you’re hungry. eat whatever the hell you want.

Pretty much.

Oh, man. Yeah, I you know, you got to finish the the packing and the moving. And there’s a lot you got to do over the next couple weeks. So you just just reminder that if you are doing the bare minimum in terms of all of the things that you normally do, it’s totally fine. Yeah, great.

I mean, there’s a lot That’s already done.

Which is great. Oh,

you know, there are rooms that are almost completely empty. It’s fine.

You’re actually way ahead of the game.

It’s really just the kitchen that I’m just like, well, I can’t pack my kitchen.

Right? You can’t pack your kitchen until like the last minute and then it’s the first thing you always you have to unpack when you get into the new place. I’ve already been like, Okay, I’m gonna have to go over and help Megan unpack her kitchen when they arrive. Because

Oh, we’ll also I’m a psycho and I will like unpack everything the day we get there. Serious when we moved to this house, like as like the movers were still moving things into the house and I was unpacking boxes.

Yeah, that’s how I am. That’s how I know Yeah, I got to be pretty much unpacked within the first couple of days and anything that is not out of a box within the first couple of days will literally never get out of the box. It will stay And then the box until I throw the box away. Exactly. So that’s pretty much how it goes. Yeah, absolutely. I Oh yeah, I always end up like finding I really boldly label all of the kitchen stuff like anything I know we’re going to need kitchen towels, like all that stuff and while the movers are bringing stuff in. I’m like getting that box. I need that box is right here. Leave me alone. Okay, goodbye. So yep, I feel Yeah, girl. I feel ya

So not alone, that

you’re you’re not alone. We’re both. I mean, maybe we’re both nuts. But at least we’re not together. It’s fine. Yeah. And our husbands have each other now so they can comiserate on their own its fine.

just throw them in the basement.

They can go break something together and they can go break something into the name of fixing something together. It’s fine.

He did tell me today that he replaced the lock, but he did not go into detail. He just said I replaced the lock.

He replaced the lock. So you guys Bob babysat for us over the weekend which we had put the baby down as a really he just came in like sat on her couch with the dogs and watch TV made sure the house didn’t burn down. And he was telling me as he was leaving that that afternoon, he had you know, cracked open a beer and he was gonna like fix this lock and he ended up breaking the lock and then got on and I quote the internet and found how to like manually take it apart and like reset it and I he was telling me the story and I was just thinking to myself, you haven’t told your wife this story yet, have you? So I guess if he told you that maybe he did just replace it ultimately, but

Well, I mean, the plan was to replace it anyway. Oh, well, because it was that weird lock that had like the key on the inside situation and so like the plan was always to replace it but He he very much only told me the high level version of that yeah well which was that the lockout replace?

bless his heart. See now we know the full thing.

My little projects love it.

So you guys know from our budgeting episode that I have a real interest in personal finance but I also admitted in that episode that investing isn’t something I have researched enough to fully understand yet even though I do it.

It’s it’s still a mystery so we promised to bring on someone who could help us better understand this topic and we’re following through today. We are joined by Chloe Daniels. She’s an old friend of mine and a personal finance blogger and financial coach to teach us what we need to know about the basics of investing. Welcome, Chloe.

Hey, thank you guys for having me on tonight and congrats on the new house. Megan. Thanks so much.

Chloe, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, so I’m Chloe, I actually went to high school with Stephie, which is crazy, because I was like, what, a million years ago, I’m pretty sure it’s like, feels like a while, like, like approximately a million years ago. But I’m known as Clo Bare on the internet, and I’m based out of Chicago, I’ve run a blog called clo bare. And I basically, I actually started blogging about mental health and relationships and body image weirdly enough, and basically, the overarching theme of my blog is like, owning my own stuff in order to fix it and grow. And as I kind of resolved my issues and mental health and relationships and things like that, I really couldn’t avoid my money habits anymore. And so I started tackling those and then Clo Bare kind of pivoted along the way and I like to think that they’re still kinda related, like, you know, when your money is good A lot of times, it’s easier to have better mental health. And it’s easier to better manage your relationships and like, live a life that’s more fulfilled and align with your values. So that’s generally what I focus on these days and what the blog focuses on these days too.

And we’ve talked about that. When we talked about budgeting, we talked about how your money and mental health and all of those things can be very intricately tied. So absolutely, those things go together.

Yeah, for sure. And even when you think about like relationships, I mean, the number one reason people get divorced is because of money. And so it’s just, I don’t think we’d like to think about money being that important in our lives a lot of times, you know, with our Puritan values as a country, but I definitely think there’s a huge correlation and causation there. A lot of that stuff.

Yeah, for sure.

So what got you started on your path to be in a personal finance blogger and financial coach?

Yeah, so like I said, I used to be really bad with money like to the point where it would give me panic attacks. And no matter how much stress it gave me, I’d still just never really learned how to manage money. I’d go through like periods of my time in my life where I would hoard money, where I’d get really good at just not spending money out of fear, or for like, a big thing in life that was about to come up like, you know, moving to China or traveling abroad or things like that. But then I blow it on an instant because my willpower would run like would totally run out. And so as that continued, and as I worked through on those other issues that I mentioned earlier, I decided I really needed to focus on okay, how do I finally get this money management situation under control, like clearly I can do this, but I need to take a little bit of time to actually learn it. I finally got to the point where I got a new job with a huge pay increase. And when I ran the numbers, I was like, Wait a second, if I actually focus on where my money is going, I could probably pay off my debt early. Like I don’t have to pay off my student loans and car debt until I’m 100. I could if I actually pay attention to where this money is going, maybe I could do it like in a couple of years. And so I did this experiment where I tracked everything I spent money on for the next two to four weeks, I was totally freaking horrified. Like, I, I am a huge believer that where we spend our money really reflects our values. And I’d say like, my values are traveling my values, our freedom, my values, our adventure and experiences. But when I did this experiment, I was like, oh, what I actually value is being drunk, going out to eat and being hungover. Like, I was blowing a ridiculous amount on these things. And you know, I blame it on like the millennial culture where we’re like, oh, it’s an experience going out to eat as an experience getting this new cocktails and experience like all those things, but it was just a really big wake up call. And I was like, okay, the thing is, like, I could constantly get a raise, and constantly make more money. But I was terrified with like, the way I was already spending money is no matter what amount of money I was gonna make, I was just gonna spend it because every year that I got a pay raise, I was spending up to that pay raise, and I was still living paycheck to paycheck and even after having like, doubled the amount of income I was making in a couple of years. So I was like, Okay, I needed to do this. I need to track everything. I spent it and that’s really how I started getting into budgeting and to hold myself accountable. I started sharing everything. I spent my money on clover, and so I’d share my budget I’d share what I spent my money on I shared where I messed up and I still do that. And so you can pretty much read everything I’ve spent my money on since October 2018 up on Clo Bare but helped me keep myself accountable. And you know, with the like a lot of other things, the more I got into personal finance, the more I wanted to learn about personal finance, because I just kept seeing as it as an it as an opportunity to create a life that I really wanted. And so you know, first it was all about budgeting and getting control of that, and then it’s okay, how soon can I pay off this $70,000 in debt? And then after that, it’s like, oh, wait, some people are retiring early, could I do that? Oh, this financial independence, retire early communities amazing. And then from there, it’s like, Okay, then you learn about investing. And then you learn about all of these other things, and it just kind of like, it just it just builds from there. And the way that I got into financial coaching, was actually after having written about money for a couple of years on Clo Bare. Someone here named saya Hellman in Chicago who runs mac and cheese productions reached out to me I was like, I think that you should teach people how to budget and I would love to do and I can’t budget workshop with you. And so I ended up doing that with her and got a couple of clients from that. And then from there, it’s just kind of, you know, somebody tell somebody about it, and then it just kind of exploded and that’s where I’m at today.

That’s awesome. I love when things just sort of fall into place. And yeah,

like, Well, you know, and I feel like when you can say, look, I did this myself, like, I may not have a degree in it. I may not like, I may not be where my background is, but I I figured it out and I did it myself. I feel like that’s a really powerful

thing. So Oh, for sure. And especially when it’s coming from somebody who you know, used to be bad with money and it’s like they can meet you where you’re at and money has such a level of shame and embarrassment and taboo around it that when you can find somebody who’s not going to talk to you, like they have a PhD in finance, it’s a lot easier to be willing to open up and share your actual finances with them. And so that at least that’s been my experience on this. And and you know, I’m always honest, like, I’m not a CFP. I’m not somebody who’s going to tell you exactly which stocks to pick or anything like that. But I can teach you what I know. And that’s what I’m here for.

And I think what you’re saying earlier about how even though you were earning more money, you were still living paycheck to paycheck that I think that rings true for so many people.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, that lifestyle creep is so real. And we live in a culture well, lifestyle. Creep is the normal it’s really normal to spend more than what you make, and it’s abnormal to live below your means. And so that kind of mentality is super pervasive across our society. And so taking a step to like, step back and decide, okay, I don’t want to live on this hamster wheel anymore. It’s kind of outside the norm and it’s uncomfortable. And you know, we’re not really taught this stuff. So you have to go out and figure it out yourself. Or we also live in a culture where it’s like, okay, you just hire somebody to do it for you. And and, you know, yes, you can hire me to teach you how to money, but I’m never going to make sure you’re dependent on me. Right?

Yeah, for sure. So, we know that budgeting is really important to have in your finances under control and becoming debt free. You talked about it in the past, but investing feels like this sort of next step toward what a lot of people would call financial freedom. So real quickly before we actually talk about where you even start when it comes to investing, can you just really like kindergarten level? Tell us what investing even is?

Yeah. sure. So investing is essentially using your money to make yourself more money. So I like to think about it as your money is working for you, it’s the dollars that you’re using to make more dollars. But essentially, in a broader sense, investing is using your money to help other businesses or projects with the expectation that by doing this by giving them money by loaning them money, you’ll earn money from it. And you know, sometimes those projects or businesses can make you a lot of money, but sometimes they can fail and you lose money or sometimes they make you just a little bit of money. So essentially, it’s it’s, it’s money used to make more money.

Awesome. And if you want to see it in action watch Shark Tank. So now, where do you start when it comes to investing if you’ve never done any sort of investing before, like, where do you even begin?

Yeah, for sure. Okay. So First, I definitely think there’s value and educating yourself on investing, you don’t have to be an expert, you can just start off by doing a little bit of reading or doing there’s the nice thing about 2020 is that there’s so many free online resources and podcasts and things to learn from. And some of the my favorite resources, which I’ll talk more about at the end of this podcast, but I love the jL Collins stock series. That’s where I first started my education on understanding the stock market and understanding investing and passive investing and things like that. But I also really love Graham Steffen. He’s a YouTuber, he’s got a YouTube channel where he makes both real estate investing and index fund investing super approachable and easy. And he also just covers investing in general and money management in general. So I definitely recommend spending time on that. I mean, essentially, it’s investing in yourself and investing in the learning so that you can feel more comfortable and investing But before that, too, there’s a couple of things that I’d say before you even start investing is make sure you have an emergency fund. Because ultimately, you don’t want to start investing if you don’t have money to fall back on and an emergency fund. And again, I know we’ll talk a little bit more about that later on. And, and I also would say that if you have high interest, credit card debt, focus on that first before you begin investing, and while you’re paying off that high interest, credit card debt, spend some time learning about investing. So you can kind of hit those two things with one one stone. But the reason I say that is because a lot of the time high interest credit card debt is above 7%. And the market really returns on average about seven or 8%. So if you’re not paying off that high interest, consumer debt, you’re really just losing money even if you are investing so it really doesn’t make any sense. But then when you get to that when you have those two things checked off, I would first focus on your retirement. It counts are tracked retirement accounts for most people are going to be tax advantaged. And the best way to make money is by not having to pay as much on taxes as you would have to if you didn’t invest in these tax advantaged buckets. And then, really, I think, spending some time thinking about what kind of an investor you want to be. There’s so many different ways to invest it. Not these days. I mean, there’s so many things that you can do. But what kind of investor Do you want to be? Do you want to be the type of person who is checking the stock market every day and gets really invested in all these companies and reads all these prospectuses and, and is you know, reading the news every day to see how Apple is doing or are you the type who wants to put a bunch of money into a fund and forget about it and look at it maybe once a year when you want to rebalance or army Yeah, right. That’s me to like passive income. vesting is definitely what I like to do, at least at this point in my life. But you know, some people like doing real estate investing where they have a tangible object that they’re, you know, working on and the effort that they put in, it will equate to the amount of money that they make. So I would also say, like, spend some time thinking about, okay, what’s my ideal look like, ideal life look like and what really matters to me, because that’s going to inform your decisions on how you invest. For me passive investing in index funds is what I love the most. I’m all about being lazy investors. So I’ll definitely dive in more about index funds. But I think those are those are the first things that I would recommend somebody who’s like, Okay, what the heck do I even do and how do I even start with this investing?

So let’s go back to your retirement accounts, because I know that’s where most people start, like when they get a job. And then like, you get a retirement account and people are like, I don’t know what that means. So can You break down the different types for us and walk us through them.

Yeah, for sure. So I’m just going to cover the most basic accounts, which are 401K’s or employer backed retirement accounts, Roth IRAs and traditional IRAs. And so a 401 K or an employer backed retirement account, basically, what makes this different from the IRAs that we’ll discuss here in a second. So employer backed retirement accounts, the thing that differentiates these from your IRAs and your Roth IRAs is that they’re completely tied to your employer. So when you leave an employer that account, you have to make sure that you can transfer it into the new retirement account that you have when you get a new employer. You can’t open one on your own unless you do a self employed 401k, which is not something I’m really going to go into in this one. There are ways to do that. But essentially, the 401k the thing that stands out is that it’s completely tied to your employer. So with that, You’re able to put in pre tax dollars, which is nice because you can save money on your tax bill. And what’s also nice about it is that it’s the, it’s it’s much higher, the contribution limits are way higher than what you can put into an IRA. So in 2020, you can put $19.5 thousand into a 401k. And that’s considered maxing it out, which I say with air quotes, because a lot of times people think maxing it out is just getting the employer match, but you can actually max out in a 401k and get that whole $19,500 into that account. With that being said, they’re usually with 401, K’s and employer backed retirement funds, you have your employer offer some kind of a match. Even if you have high interest, credit card debt and any other kind of debt, get that match. Most people don’t have an employer match and so if you don’t get it, you’re losing out on one of the benefits of your retirement. And also of working at the company that you’re working at. And so I always tell everybody, like get that match, even if it’s like, they match 3% 100% so they put 100% of 3% of your salary in there if you’re putting that 3% in, but then they’ll match 50% all the way up to 6% put in that 6% because you’re never ever in life gonna get a 100% ROI return on investment, and you’re also pretty much never going to get a 50% ROI that’s guaranteed either so it’s like free money. It’s basically part of your salary and if you’re not claiming it, you’re completely missing out.

free money.

Yes, I mean, you’re already working for them. So technically, you still have to work but I you know, it’s it’s like if you don’t accept it, you’re you’re saying no to free money, like throwing money away? Correct. So even if you have high interest credit card that do that. So that’s definitely like even when you start investing to like that should be your first line of defense like, first get that match above everything else and then do all the other things. And but the nice things about 401 Ks two is that, yes, you can save money on your tax bill. The other nice thing is you can borrow from it. It’s kind of risky and coronavirus pandemic times to borrow from it. Because if you leave your job or if you lose your job, you then have to pay back that loan within 60 days. So I don’t generally recommend borrowing from your 401k and the times that we’re in right now. But it is an option if you run into that or have run into the need to do that. And the nice thing too is there are qualified expenses where you can borrow against it where you don’t have to pay a penalty or you don’t have you don’t have to pay a penalty and you don’t have to. or I’m sorry, let me rephrase that. There are also qualified expenses where you can do Take withdrawals from your 401k without having to pay it back. But you do still have to pay taxes. And the IRS has explanations on what those are. But usually it’s like college expenses or purchasing your first home. And besides that, I also like 401 K’s because they’re super convenient. So you know how like your dad’s always telling you to pay yourself first. So borrow and pays are essentially paying yourself first because the money comes directly out of your paycheck and into the account and you can’t touch it. So then when you’re budgeting, you don’t look at the money that you put into the 401k as your income. It’s just that’s already gone. And so you’ve already saved and now you can budget with the rest of the money that’s leftover in your paycheck. So some of the drawbacks of a 401k is that they do have higher fees than IRAs and sometimes your accounts aren’t super open about it. You have to do a little bit of digging you have to call your HR to figure out what fees are associated with your 401k In addition to that, they do have required minimum distributions. So when you get to be 72 years old, you do have to withdraw money from that. And then like I said, there are early withdrawal fees. So if it’s not a qualified expense, and you take money out of your 401k, not only are you subject to paying taxes on that, since you didn’t pay taxes, when you put the money in, you are also subject to a 10% penalty, which means you could be paying a whole lot more on that than if you had taken like a loan, a personal loan or used a credit card or something like that. And then the other drawback is that there’s usually vesting periods as well. So that’s 401 K’s Any questions on that?

I know it’s a lot of information. Everyone, take a deep breath.

And next time

Roth IRAs, which everybody loves, everybody loves Roth IRAs. So The reason that people have Roth IRAs is because it’s post tax dollars in there, which means you’ve already paid taxes on it. And these IRA accounts are super special because not only do you get to not pay taxes on it when you take the money out in retirement, but you also don’t have to pay taxes on any gains and the market that your money is making, which is pretty cool. And there’s no other retirement account that allows that. And the nice thing too, about Roth IRAs is that you can take the money out anytime. You can’t take out the gains anytime, but you can take the money that you’ve contributed out any time, which is pretty cool. And again, not any other retirement account that we’re going to discuss, allows that. The nice thing too about Roth IRAs is you open it yourself. It’s not tied to your employer. It’s something that you get to pick the brokerage you get to pick the investment firm, you get to pick all of the things and then you also get to pick your own stocks and funds. And whatever else you’re going to put into that account with the 401k, going back to the 401k, your employer picks all the different funds that you can choose from. So they pick the stocks, they pick the bonds, and they pick the funds that you can choose from. And therefore, it’s convenient because you don’t have to do all the research yourself. You just have to research you know, the 15 stocks and bonds and funds that they let you choose from. But it’s kind of inconvenient to because if there’s a fund that you wanted to open with, say, with Vanguard, and you’re doing it in fidelity on in the 401k, you’re not able to get that stock that you wanted to buy. With a Roth IRA, you have way more options and with all IRAs you have way more options because you get to pick who you’re going to open it with. And you also get to pick what funds you’re going to fund it with. With Roth IRAs as well, the drawback is that there are income limits. So if you make above certain amount you can’t contribute to a Roth IRA. However, there are also backdoor Roth IRAs that you can google if you make over the income limits that will allow you to contribute to a Roth IRA. But besides that, the only other drawback I would say is that it’s not deductible. So when you contribute money to a Roth IRA, you can’t deduct that from your taxes in the year that you make contributions. So you The nice thing is you don’t have to pay taxes when you pull it out, but you don’t get an immediate tax benefit. And then the other thing is that there are no required minimum distributions. So when you get to your 70s, you’re not required to start taking money out of your Roth IRA. So that’s Roth IRAs. Any questions? They’re

probably later.

All right. So just it’s funny because like I talked about them in the order that they get more confusing because it’s like 401k pretty basic to understand Roth IRAs. Pretty basic, too, but a little bit more complicated. And then we get into traditional IRAs and the non deductible versus deductible and it is just confusing. So here we go. Okay. Okay, so, buckle up, friends buckle up. Okay, so traditional IRAs, and with Roth IRAs, as well, you can contribute $6,000 in a given tax year. But with traditional IRAs, you can either have a non deductible or a deductible IRA. And that all depends on whether or not you already have an employer backed retirement account. So I have a 401k. And because of that, I am not eligible for a deductible IRA because I make too much money in order to get a deductible IRA. So that is kind of the confusing factor in it. And what’s also confusing is that the deductible limits The income limits are based off of your modified adjusted gross income. So it’s not just the AGI, you have to go in and use one of the spreadsheets to figure out one of the IRS spreadsheets to figure out if you even qualify for a deductible IRA. But basically, if you do qualify for a duck deductible IRA, and you have to check the income limits, as well as the employer backed if you have an employer backed retirement fund, then you need to check the income limits. But the nice thing is, is when you contribute to the deductible IRA, you are able to deduct that from your taxes in the year that you contribute. So, it’s you can contribute either pre tax or post tax dollars, which can be a little bit confusing. If it’s post tax, you just have to keep track of that. And the nice thing too, just like with a Roth Roth IRA, is that there’s more investment options. There’s no high fees that come with the 401 k Like a Roth or like a 401k, you can use the money in the deductible IRA for qualified expenses, which that list of qualified expenses is on the IRS website. And it’s usually like I said, college or buying a first time, first time buying a home. But you do with that you do have to pay money on that those taxes and on the gains that you made in the market, when you take that money out in retirement. The thing about deductible IRAs too, if you take money out before you’re 59 and a half years old, you will be taxed at that, that the amount that you pull out, but you’ll also be subject to another penalty. So it’s similar to the 401k. And similar to a 401k. There are also required minimum distributions once you get to 72 years old.

But that’s that’s the same for all of them. The only one that you don’t have required minimum distributions is the Roth IRA. So that’s the deductible. But on the non deductible sides, there’s way less benefits than all the other retirement accounts we’ve talked about. So far. There aren’t any income limits, which is like one of the positives of a non deductible IRA. So anybody can contribute to a non deductible IRA, and you don’t pay taxes on your investment gains until retirement. You can either put in pre tax or after tax dollars for them. Usually it makes more sense to put an after tax dollars, because you don’t know what tax rate you’re going to be in when you retire. So when you retire, it’s possible, your tax rate could be way higher than what it was when you were contributing to it. So generally, financial professionals recommend putting an after tax dollars. But the nice thing about the IRAs again, is that you don’t have any high fees and you can use the money for qualified expenses. But the annoying thing about It is that you have to keep track on what you paid taxes on. So again, there’s that little worksheet on the IRS website that you have to keep yourself and so that you can ensure when you take out money in retirement, you’re not getting taxed again. So if you don’t keep track of that you could potentially pay not only taxes when you put money in, but also when you take the money out. The thing here with the non deductible IRAs is there’s money in there in the account that you’ve already paid taxes on, and there’s also money in there, which is from the gains and the investment increases and things like that, that you will have to pay taxes on once you pull that money out. So it’s kind of confusing. It’s definitely a little bit more bookkeeping. But again with that, it’s it’s technically tax deferred, since you don’t have to pay any of the taxes on your investment gains while it’s in the market. Again, with that one, you do have required minimum distributions and just like the deductible IRA, the Roth IRA or in the 401k. You can take money out for qualified expenses. But if you take that money out, and it’s not a qualified expense before the age of 59 and a half, you do have to pay a penalty and you also have to pay taxes on those gains.

Wolf, okay, it’s a lot.

Let’s Let’s TLDR this. If you have the opportunity to have a 401 K, especially if it’s matched even a little bit by your employer, you should absolutely be doing that.


And so that’s sort of your like first like no brainer, I have the opportunity to have a 401k and and some of it is matched. Definitely do that. 100% If you do not have access to a 401k through your employer Your Roth IRA, Roth IRA is going to be sort of your most like your simplest option.

Yes, well, and your best option to like if you qualify for a Roth IRA, even like 401k aside, you should absolutely be contributing to a Roth IRA. The Roth IRA is kind of like a gift from the IRS in in that it’s the only account where your tax, where you’re not your taxes where your investments grow tax free. And because of that, you’re saving money on all the money that you’re making. There’s no other account where you can make money in the market and not pay taxes on it.

So even if you have a 401k and you’re putting money into that, your recommendation would be to still be putting some money into a Roth IRA as well.

Yeah, absolutely. So if you don’t have or if you don’t have the funds to max out your 401k, like put $19,500 in it in a year. Just focus on getting that match, and then go to your Roth IRA. If you have, so say it’s only 3%. So you put 3% in your 401k. And now you’re like, Okay, what do I do after this? Focus on maxing out that Roth IRA first, because it’s going to give you way more benefits than putting maxing out your 401k. The reason I say that is because a 401 K, you will have to pay taxes when you retire. And the again, the issue there is you could possibly be paying more on taxes when you retire because you’re retiring at a higher tax bracket. Sure. So essentially, a Roth IRA is your way to get around that. So it’s going to cushion that even if your your, your Roth IRA, it’s likely not going to fund your entire retirement, but it’s going to be that option where you don’t have to pay taxes and you’re going to be able to make more money in the market with that Roth IRA.

Okay, that makes sense. So

if you have, so there’s a limit on 401k. And there’s a limit on Roth IRAs. So if you have both of those, and you’re maxing both of those, then do you recommend getting a traditional as well. So is that when we move on to the next step.

So with a you cannot max out a Roth IRA and a traditional IRA In the same year, you can put $3,000 in a Roth IRA and $3,000 in a traditional IRA. But really, there’s no point in doing that, unless you’re trying to, you know, if you have a deductible option with the IRA, and you’re trying to lower your tax bill, I guess that’s a that’s a possibility and why you do that. But if you’re maxing out your Roth IRA, and you’re maxing out your 401k, the next move would be to open up your own brokerage account that’s not in a tax advantaged bucket and start investing in some index funds or mutual funds or whatever it is. You want to invest in or you know Whatever investment path you decide to go on, whether it’s real estate or something else, not Bitcoin.

Excellent, good to know. All right.

Okay, so now that we’ve sort of recapped our retirement accounts and you know, so if you’re maxing out your 401k or maxing out your Roth IRA, we’re going to go to index funds, but what the fuck is an index fund? Why does it matter?

an index fund is basically a passively managed mutual fund, which probably still sounds like another language. So, basically, how a bond or stock or whatever is doing in the market is measured by an index. And an index fund is created by a computer or whatever to make That index. So essentially, it’s like a basket that is filled with stocks and bonds or other financial assets that mirror any given market. For example, the s&p 500. So if you bought an s&p 500 index fund, that index fund is going to literally contain stocks from all 500 companies that make up the s&p 500 market. So when you purchase an s&p 500 index fund, you’re purchasing a small portion of all of those 500 companies for just one price. The reason this is really cool is because if you were going to try and purchase one stock from each of those 500 companies within that s&p 500 it would be an insane amount of money. But because there are now index funds, you’re able to get a small portion of all these and diversifier your investments, while minimizing your risk and and getting in on the game with all you know Amazon and all those things. Big Big companies.

Okay, so

high reward low risk basically,

not even I wouldn’t even say high reward. It’s so that’s the drawback of an index fund. And that’s why some people focus on investing in mutual funds. The index fund just aims to be the market, whereas mutual funds actively managed mutual funds focused on trying to beat the market. Okay. The thing about index funds, though, is over the last 10 years, they have beat out actively managed mutual funds 95% of the time, so those Yes, and so those actively managed mutual funds that are run by high price professionals who went to Yale and Harvard and studied finances. over the long term. There’s only Most like 90% of the time, they’re not able to beat the market. There are obviously rare instances where they are able to do that. But generally index funds, they match the market, which is usually seven or 8% return over the course of 10 years on average. So that’s generally why I recommend if you’re interested in passive investing and not worrying so much about looking at stocks every day or setting up on businesses and things like that, in order to try and beat the market, index funds are a great way to go. It’s awesome for a ton of different reasons. And so index funds are instant diversification. It’s good that diversification is good because you aren’t putting all your eggs in one basket. So if one company in the index fund fails, you have hundreds of other stocks and assets to cushion that blow. When you push as well. Like I said earlier, when you purchase one index fund, it’s already diversified rather than when you purchase one share of Amazon or one share of Tesla, and you have all of your money eggs in that basket. The other nice thing about index funds is they are super low cost, especially in comparison to mutual funds. They actively managed mutual funds. And they’re low cost, because you don’t have somebody actively trading in that account. So, like actively managed mutual funds you’ve got you literally have Brad from Yale, looking at the market every single day and deciding what he’s gonna buy, sell and trade with index funds. None of that’s happening, it’s designed and so you can put your money in it and you can pretty much Forget about it. And you can know that for the most part, it’s going it’s designed to mirror the market. So what the market Doug’s this index fund is going to do as well.

Besides that, like and you know, talking about like, setting it and forgetting it, they’re so so so easy to do. Like, you can Do it anybody with 20 minutes time and the ability to open a brokerage account on the internet can invest in an index fund. Whereas when you’re investing in mutual funds, a lot of the time it takes a lot of research and time and you know, you’re focusing on when to buy and when not to buy and things like that. And even even with it being easy and simple, it still beats 90% of those actively managed mutual funds. And so that’s why it’s one of my favorite ways of investing. And on the flip side, mutual funds are also an option the actively managed ones, but they’re they’re basically the same in the same way. They’re already diversified. So a mutual fund can hold 100 plus other stocks, bonds and financial assets. But like I said, they’re actively managed, which means like an Ivy League money managers buying and selling within the account with that comes a lot higher fees. So like an index fund. Usually those fees are as low as point 03 percent. And you know, a lot of the ones that I see on like fidelity and Vanguard are at like 0.15%. But with actively managed mutual funds, those fees are usually between one and 3%. Plus there are fees when you buy and sell. So you’re looking at at least 10 times more the fees than what you would have in an index fund. And generally, you’re gonna get better returns from index funds. The thing too about mutual funds when you’re paying these fees, those managers, those money managers who are trading and selling within those funds, they have to get paid whether you lose money or not. So if one year you lose a bunch of money on these mutual funds that they’re selling, you still have to pay fees for the person who’s managing that and who essentially lost your money. So generally, I don’t think mutual funds are worth it for the long term investor, but mutual funds can be worth it in the short term. majority still don’t beat the market. But there’s larger percentages, like 30% of mid cap will beat the market in a year. But over the long term, they’re not going to beat the market. So if you are interested in watching those and figuring out when to buy and sell, then you know, that’s that’s definitely an option and you’re able to make more money. But if you’re interested in just like buying an index fund and holding it and buying more index funds, and then in 20 years retiring on it, index funds are generally the way to go. So

to again, sort of TLDR this, if you’re wanting to make a quick buck, maybe mutual funds are the way to go. But honestly, is investing really about a quick buck. Probably not so, index funds are going to be a little bit more of a long game, but pretty easy to do. Like anybody can do it.

Yeah, I mean, it’s it goes back to that high risk, high reward low risk. Well, you know, all that. So mutual funds, I would say are high risk, high reward. If you’re looking at it from the short term, if you’re looking at it from the long term, it’s high risk, low reward because generally index funds perform better. index funds are pretty low risk. And I’d say a medium reward like, you know, the market over the last hundred years has returned 8% on average every year. So you know, you’re gonna get 8% return. So if you’re comfortable with that, it really just depends on your risk preference. And for me, I have a decent risk preference and that I’m willing to invest more in index funds that are filled with stocks, but I’m still pretty conservative when it comes to my money. And the thing too, about mutual funds is there’s that sort of ego that’s involved in thinking that and even with picking stocks and day trading, if you think you can beat the market It even though less than 10% of Ivy League grads who are managing these accounts are able to beat this market, well then go for it. But then it’s kind of like gambling. So if you want to gamble with your money, go for it. Like it’s fun. It’s something that’s interesting. That’s kind of how I feel about Bitcoin too. It’s more like, more like gambling and less like investing. But if you’re looking for something that’s going to be stable, secure, easy, like obviously it’s not guaranteed because nothing is guaranteed. But if you want the least risky way of investing and the easiest way of investing and often the the best performing long term investment index funds are definitely the way to go.

My mind is blown. I just learned.

So Did either of you know anything at all about index funds before? I

knew I mean, I think I have one.

I think my ira is set up with an index fund.

Yay. Well, the thing too, is like it’s very easy to spot if it’s an index fund or not. Cuz it’s gonna say index fund in the title of the stock.


the thing is that I like almost never login, because I’m very passive. Like, I don’t want to, I get like, so overwhelmed by all the data that I’m just like, I’m just gonna put my money in, and it’s gonna do his thing, and then I’ll get my statement, and I’ll look at the number and ignore the

rest. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, but the thing is, with index funds, you can do that. That’s the nice thing. The only thing you have to do like once a year or you know, every six months is reallocate and rebalance it. So if you say you have a high risk preference, and you’re 2030 years away from retirement, I, you know, the way that they the way that they figure out how you should how much should be in bonds, and how much should be in stocks is you take 100, and you subtract it from the age that you are and that’s the amount that you should have in in stocks. So you know, if you’re 30 years old, and you subtract that from 100 you should have 70% in stocks and 30% in bonds, I am a little bit more aggressive just because I have nothing, you know, I I’m single, I don’t have any kids and things like that. So I’ve got about 90% in stocks, but even so, you if you’re investing in index funds, it’s relatively safe. And it’s not something that you have to be, you know, waiting on bated breath every morning for the reports to come out to see how your stocks are doing.

Yeah, I don’t want to do that.


I’m doing good to remember like a breakfast when I get up in the morning. So

I want to be able to like put my money somewhere and not really pay attention to it. And so I’ve always been really, really intimidated by just investing in general like even with my 401k I just generally am like, you know, because you have to decide to You know, pick where your money’s going and like management, right? That’s and I’m usually like, it’ll, it’ll often say, you know, here’s based on your age and all of this stuff, like, here’s your like, pretty low risk option. And I’m like, yep, that sounds great to me, because I literally have no idea what any of this is. And so I had no idea what an index fund was. But now I’m like, Oh, I actually could do that.

Oh, absolutely. It’s the easiest way and like, you know, it’s, you’re just you’re buying the whole market. You know, there’s this thing called a free three fund portfolio that a lot of lazy investors recommend. And often it, it actually beats 99% of actively managed funds. And it’s super simple. You basically you have, you buy one stock, that’s a US a US index fund that’s focused on stocks, then you buy another stock that’s focused on us. I’m sorry, international stocks, and then you buy one that’s focused on us bonds. And that’s it. That’s your three fund portfolio and you you know, based off of what your risk preferences depending on how far away you are from retirement, you know, you increase the amount of bonds that you have, and you decrease the amount of stocks you have, but it’s really that simple. And I think that there’s a lot of people who benefit out there from making it seem like it’s really complicated. Yeah. You know, and it’s just, it’s just, it’s not nearly as complicated as they make it seem but there’s definitely, definitely a lot of complications out there. And I personally like the simple easy way.

Yeah. So it so when in terms of like, looking at investment funds and things like that, your is your recommendation, really to wait to do that until you have max out 401k maxed out your Roth IRA or should you You seem to be doing a little bit of all of it.

Yeah. So I mean, my, my order of priorities is usually first get that match, second max out a Roth IRA. Third, if you’ve already done that, and you still have money left over max out your 401k as input and that $19,500 every year, but you’re doing so you’re picking stocks within your 401k. So you’re still doing that you’re picking those index funds, you’re picking those index bonds, you’re picking those, you know, international stocks or whatever. And even within your Roth IRA, you’re still picking those things as well. So you’re still doing it at the same time. Then after you max out that 401k I would say then look into opening your own brokerage account. And you know, each brokerage firm each financial institution has different fees associated with it in the financial independence community. The favourites are usually fidelity and Vanguard. Vanguard has historically very low fees, and they have really high performing index funds. The VTS Ax is one of the absolute favorites of the fire community. And with fidelity, they also have a bunch of zero fee index funds as well. And you can find all of those by just doing fidelity zero fee index funds, and they’re actually the first company who ever did that, which is pretty cool. And so they’re they’re pretty, I would say, they’re pretty on par with Vanguard, but Vanguard historically has been a fire fire family favorite.

Yeah. Okay, that’s awesome.

Yeah, for sure. I feel like I’m learning so much.

So you talked earlier about how if you don’t have an emergency fund, you should do that first before investing and Warning if trying to think of how to word this because the way Stephie the way the question is written is not how I want to ask it because I think we kind of covered it.

I know Chloe, Chloe was so good.

Sorry. I was like, Oh my god, am I rambling too much?

So, because of COVID and everything that’s happened in the past six months, I guess everyone has been paying, you know, more attention to their money and the idea of an emergency fund and just money in general. And so, even though you recommend having an emergency fund set up before investing, is there any level on which you consider investing part of your emergency fund?

Honestly, not really. That was one of the mistakes that I made before Coronavirus. Hit us is I have a large chunk of money wrapped up in a couple of real estate projects here in Chicago and the reason I was like oh, I don’t really need to worry about is because every couple of months The project wraps up, then I get that paid, I get the option to reinvest or get paid out. But the thing is I didn’t have a whole lot of cash reserves that if I lost my job tomorrow, I would be able to access in order to avoid that high interest, credit card debt and things like that, to me, unless it’s in a Roth IRA, investments really aren’t a an emergency fund. And even with a Roth IRA, I would be very, I’d be hesitant to recommend that because, yes, you can pull out your Roth IRA contributions at any time without a penalty, but it’s not super liquid, like you can’t immediately access that money. And the thing about a emergency fund is it needs to be relatively easy for you to access. So generally, that’s why I really don’t consider it a an emergency fund. Also, there’s always the possibility that the the same day you lose your job The market tanks, and it’s going to be eight months before you even recover the amount of money that you have invested. So, in that way you really especially during a year, like 2020, you really cannot depend on your investments being your emergency fund, your emergency fund needs to be that quick cash that you can access so that you can pay rent or you can pay an emergency bill or whatever it is in a pinch. So generally, that’s that’s what I recommend is that you have it on cash or if you have to, or if you want to earn a little bit of interest from it, you can put it into a high yield savings account. But that’s pretty much all I would recommend the Roth IRA being a last resort,

so have it in a basically have it in a savings account that you’re really not touching.

Yeah, honestly, I usually recommend people put it in a separate savings account because when it’s in your standard savings account, it just kind of feels like fun money or If you don’t know what you’re saving for, or you think it’s like part of that mortgage or the down payment on a house, it’s so much easier to access. But if you put it in like an ally, high interest earning account, it’s much easier to be like, Okay, this is my emergency fund and I am not allowed to touch this.

Yeah, for sure. Some, some people on this call me definitely needs a separation between church and state of like, okay, you’re not allowed to touch that.

It’s hard. I mean, it’s hard, especially when you don’t have clear financial goals or if you’re new to new to even budgeting and saving and if you don’t know what you’re saving for, it’s so easy to just be like, well, I don’t really have a goal so I’m just going to spend this money.

Yeah, for sure. So what is your goal for when you’re first setting up an emergency fund because I know different financial people say different things. Some people say $1,000. Some people say six to nine months of expenses or They’re kind of like, like, that’s a wide range there.

It absolutely is. And it honestly, it’s personal. So it depends on your risk preference. You know, for me, I am the only person who depends on myself other than my dog. And so, you know, my risk preference might be a little bit higher. So I, I’m working on having six months of emergency funds and savings, but I currently only have three. So I generally recommend three to six months for people, just because that’s a pretty, you know, generally it takes three to six months to find a job if you lose your job. In a pandemic, the reason people are starting to recommend six to nine months is it’s taking a lot longer to find a job during 2020. And who knows how long that’ll go into 2021. And so, you know, again, it depends on your risk preference. It also depends on how secure is your job and I think that this is something that people Rely on a little bit too much people think that their jobs a lot more stable than what it is. And the thing is, any time you are relying on one source of income, it’s risky. So if you don’t have any other source of income, you don’t have a side hustle, you don’t have investments you don’t have whatever it is rental income or anything like that. And you’re just relying on your nine to five. That’s risky. So if you’re saying, okay, I only need to have $1,000 in my emergency fund, because my job’s really secure. I really question that because there are things that happen that nobody could have predicted. Like, I don’t think anybody could have predicted all the things that have happened this year. So again, it just depends. You know, if you have three kids at home and you are worried about losing your job, and we you know, you you’re a sole provider, you’re probably going to want to have even more than three to six months saved. But if you’re like me and you have no responsibilities, you know, hey, Powered dog would really?

Oh my gosh, you’re so sweet.

Though like, I mean everything else about kids, but I have four pets. They Yeah, definitely like you need to be able to, you know, take them to the vet and get them their food and their vaccinations just like you do with your human kids. So when I know now so I can I can say

yes, absolutely. So you’re right. My Risk preference is a little bit higher than or a little bit lower than it used to be. Because I now have Logan. Yeah, you’re a dog mama now. So I’m a dog mom. Now. I have to be a little less risky. For sure.

So what are some of your favorite financial resources for people just starting to get their finances under control? I know you mentioned a couple earlier, but we Yeah, all the details.

Oh my god, there’s so many. So I have a couple of blog posts on my favorite financial resources on Cloe Bare But I am this is so dorky every single day at lunch I watch the new video on Graham Stephens channel because he does this thing where he he’s like it’s like millionaire reacts. And so he’ll he’s like the most the cheapest millionaire there is in Los Angeles and he reacts to people going over their spending reports and what they spend in a month and I’m addicted to it. Love that, Oh, it’s so great. And Graham is just very likable, especially if you’re a frugal person. And he’s just, you know, he lives way below his means, and I appreciate his insight. He also just has really good tips on real estate investing and index investing as well. So he’s super practical, too. I mentioned the jL Collins stock series. I definitely think that’s a good thing for anybody to read. It’s, it’s free. You just have to Google jL Collins stock series, it’ll come up right away, but he really breaks down Getting Started on investing, which I really appreciate. I also love rich and regular. They’re a couple in Atlanta that retired early because they were able to save a bunch of money. I don’t know if they’re totally retired yet but one of them is working the other one’s a stay at home dad. And then I love how to money podcast that one’s great. I also love choose fi the podcast and the website. They’ve got some great blog posts and F fi stands for financial independence. And, but the nice thing about choose fi is they also have a bunch of different Facebook groups where you can join like the Chicago choose fi Facebook group, and you can connect with other fire nerds in your area. So like, I’ll arrange meetups when it’s not Coronavirus time for all the financial independence retire early nerds get together and like talk about retiring early and invest And how much money did you save last month? But it’s, it’s kind of awesome because it’s like, you know, it’s a really good group to ask for recommendations. Because these people are so frugal that and they’re so focused on their money and they’re really, you know, paying attention to where their money is going. So when you need a professional like an accountant, or when you need a realtor or something, you know, they’re going to make sure they’re going to give you really great recommendations, because they’ve already vetted it and they’re, they’re focused on okay, how do I get the most for my money? And how do I get somebody who’s you know, honest and really focused on the, you know, maximizing my income. So, it’s kind of a cool group. And then I also love millennial revolution, which is a website. They also have a book but it’s about a couple who was able to quit to basically retire when they were, I think 30 and travel, they’ve been traveling the world ever since. And I think it’s been like five or six years that they’ve been traveling, and they’ve just been living off of their investments. So I love them too. And, you know, they’re they were probably my first introduction to the financially independent retire early community, because I don’t I don’t know how I happened upon their website, but they I remember reading it and getting so jealous that they could do what they were doing. And I’m also really big believer that whatever makes you jealous is something that you really wished you were doing. And so I kept being like, I could never retire early. I could never do that. Now it’s for other people. But after like getting more and more into it, I was like, I could probably do this. So I love them. And then two other ones is that one book Millionaire Next Door. That one was a really big one for kind of driving home the point of living below your means and how kind of messed up our society is and that we you know, constantly choose the option of looking rich over being wealthy, and I just really love the lessons in that book. But I also love this website called frugal woods. And they are this couple this young couple with a kid I think they have one or two kids and a dog and they picked up quit their jobs in their 30s and move to a homestead in Vermont. And they live completely off of their investments and they also run a homestead and it’s just something about it it’s just so I never want to live on a homestead or anything but it’s quaint and adorable and I don’t know gives me a warm fuzzy feelings.

Very Little House on the Prairie for 2020

Yeah, it’s very like it’s just a heartwarming love that

so how can our listeners find you online so that they can follow along or book time with you for financial coaching which I think is a thing I might need to do because

my mind today

Oh, I’m so glad. I’m I always worry that what I share is like basic, but then I remember that even basic stuff, you know, it’s like, this isn’t stuff that we’re taught. So that was helpful. And so I can be found everywhere. Well, all of the links to everything I do are on my website, Clo Bare, which is CL ob ar And you can follow me on Instagram where I post pictures of my dog daily. And my handle there is clo underscore B ar e. And then yeah, I mean, my my website too, is where you can book for financial coaching. You can also just send me an email, but all those links are gonna be on my website. I

love it. Thank you so much.

Thank you guys so much. I hope I didn’t totally bore everybody.

Now it’s totally like up my little nerdy


I feel like I think I understand some things but still have it.

I mean, it’s complicated. It’s stuff that you have to like, learn over and over again and read over and over again, like I had to take notes to make sure I knew what the contribution limits are and like, you know, the tiny little things that you have to remember, but, you know, it gets easier. It’s like this is stuff that I didn’t know anything about two years ago

at all. That’s awesome.

That’s true. Yeah. It’s kind of something you have to practice.

Yeah, exactly. Anything else? All right, exactly.

What’s bringing us joy

Love that. Awesome. So now we talk about what’s bringing us joy this week. So Chloe, what is making you happy right now.

So recently, so my boyfriend teaches boxing and like jujitsu and things like that. And last weekend, I made him start giving me lessons and I freakin love it. You

haven’t broken up. It’s amazing.

Oh my gosh, I love it so much. It makes me feel like a total badass and like it’s such a good like release, but I’m also sore for like days after

rice. And I say I say that because my husband Used to be a personal trainer and yeah, he could we could not know like, out together and it just doesn’t really usually go very well. So we usually end up fighting. So

fair. So Tarik, he teaches five year olds, so he’s like very, very patient. He’s a very patient and when I don’t get it right, 100 times, so I think that probably helps.

I love that. Okay, so that’s the key is for them to be used to teaching like kindergarten level.

Exactly. Yeah.

That’s awesome. I love that.

Stephie, what’s bringing you joy this week?

Well, this weekend, I ate at a restaurant for the first time since February. Oh my gosh, I know. We didn’t eat in the restaurant. We ate Outside, they had outdoor seating. That’s actually a way Megan’s husband was babysitting for us, my dad. And set mom took us out to our friends. He just opened a new place here in a neighboring town. And so we went and had dinner. And it was amazing because I could just like, ask for stuff. And it like appeared at the table. I didn’t think ahead at what I wanted, or plan in any way shape or form. It was amazing. And the food was fucking phenomenal. So that was amazing. But it was just psych. Look at this food it’s appearing. I didn’t think ahead. I didn’t plan there it is. So I forgot how much I like to do this.


that doesn’t that’s mind blowing to me. I know right? And like really good cocktails that I didn’t have to make myself just it was great. So I missed it. So it’ll probably be another six months before we go out again. But hey, you know What?

Hey, you know, you got to appreciate the times that you do absolutely i

not gonna take it for granted anymore.

Man Your turn was bring you joy.

So since we are moving in two weeks Well, I guess one week after this airs, but um, my two best friends who live here came over to have a little like social distancing cookout in my backyard. And I hadn’t seen them both in like a really long time. So it was really nice to just like, talk about things and we was it was finally at that point where like, we were talking, but we weren’t talking about COVID anymore. Yes. Because it seems you know how it seems like when you get together with friends, a lot of the time you spend is spent talking about COVID Mm hmm. And so we finally just like got to talk about life and it was just really good love. Nice to see them. I felt it was sad because obviously I’m leaving But

it was good at the same time they’re just gonna have to come up here because I know both of these friends and they’re lovely and so though now they can come up here and see us well we already have

a list of like places that we’re going to go together like meetup perfect basically because it was we set aside from COVID like we don’t live close to each other in the city so we don’t see each other that often and so we’re like we actually might see each other more now that Megan lives far away while traveling, we traveling to see each other and then spend like full days together.

Right? So

I feel like that about I feel like that about my best friend from college like we live. We both lived in the Chicago area for a few years, but I feel like we almost I mean outside of COVID almost see each other more often now that I live a couple hours away because when we’re seeing each other We’re actually spending real quality time together not just like, here’s a quick dinner by so

right. Yeah, I like that. Oh, that’s such a good perspective. I have to.

Yeah, I mean, you know, and I feel like you, you also when you’re a little further apart sometimes you’re a little bit more intentional about like doing FaceTime, sir. Checking in via text or whatever. It’s sort of just like, oh, they’re down the street. Oh, catch up with them sometime, right? overdue, so,

yeah, absolutely. I’m never

gonna come catch up with you.

Next week’s episode

We’re never gonna see each other except for when we have like family dinners every week. It’s fine. Well, next week, we’re gonna chat about our civic duty voting.

Surprise, surprise that we have some strong feelings about this topic. So meet us back here next week as we talk about why we feel voting is important from a local to the national level and tell us leave us a review on Apple podcasts and listen to us on your favorite platform. You can also follow us on social media at IRSIpodcast or send us an email at We’d love to hear from you.

Talk to you soon.

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